Note: The following story contains spoilers from the “Succession” series finale.
In the series finale of “Succession”, the Gozo acquisition of Waystar Royko and Tom Wambsgans gets board approval and he rises to the top as its new US CEO. The swan song of the popular HBO drama left open the fates of several of its main cast members, including Waystar chief financial officer Karl Mueller.
“I’m rooting for Carl. He’s where he is, working with Waystar, because he’s the best in town. He’s the best in the business, otherwise Logan wouldn’t be around,” said actor David Rasche. told TheWrap. “So my guess is that since this is a cutthroat business, and since Tom has no insight, if he thinks he can use Carl he’ll lay him off in a heartbeat. I think Carl has a few years left in her and if not, I think she’s thrilled to be on that Greek island she’s half with her brother-in-law.
When asked whether Rasche thinks Carl will get his highly sought after golden parachute, he replied: “Certainly! And it’s going to be full of writers and novelists and scientists and smart people and beautiful women.” It’s going to be a great life.
Watch TheWrap’s full conversation with Rashe below.
TheWrap: What was it like working on one of the biggest drama series of our time?
RACHE: I don’t think anybody knew this was going to happen in the beginning. i knew jessie [Armstrong], we did a movie together called “In the Loop”. And I actually auditioned for the role of Gerri—which, Jerry, used to be a man, but they changed it to a woman. And he said “Oh, let me get David on the show.” So he wrote a part for me and I didn’t know what to do but he was so sweet that he stuck me in there. And so after the first season they said, “David, sorry you didn’t have much to do this year, but you never know there might be another season.”
It was always getting better and better and better. This is the best season of the four and who knew it would be this big? Nobody knew, you can’t know this stuff. But it is the product of an absolutely tremendous amount of emotional, mental, intellectual energy. Jesse Armstrong is simply remarkable. He does it without breaking a sweat and he’s on every decision and he knows everything that’s going on and he’s kind and generous and humble. There was nothing negative about it. never.
He gave a speech after the last scene was shot this season and we did a little get-together and he said, “We came together as one organism, as a group, as a family, and from now on, when also you look at anybody you work with this show, you’re with all of us. Very interesting. So he really is absolutely the greatest person ever, so the self-forgetfulness. It’s really very unusual in this business .
It’s a really out-of-body experience, I think, for everybody. No one knew that this was going to happen in the show. No one knew it would capture the psyche and imagination of the nation and the world.
What was your reaction upon learning that Tom Westar would be taking over as CEO of Royco?
In the third season finale, when Logan coaxes the kids to put a hand on Tom’s shoulder, you get the sense that this is how things are going to go. But if you want an ending that highlights the fruits of lives lost, and that of three children, then it’s going to go this way. None of them are going to get it. They’re all going to be out of luck and Logan has destroyed them and their lives and himself. It is the result of that hard work. When you act without any morals and ethics and that kind of anger and ferocity, it ends there. And for this crown jewel to end up in the hands of Tom but also Lucas Mattson – you find out who that really is. [Tom] Alexander is in that long conversation with Skarsgard. That disgusting – ‘I need a pain sponge,’ ‘Okay, okay, I can do that.’ what is that? Nothing.
The thing that impressed me the most in the last episode, that I didn’t see happening, is when Tom invites Shiva to get in the car with him and you don’t know if she’s going to leave. And he gets in the car and there she is and he puts his hand down and she puts her hand on his, he was just chilling. He didn’t put his hand on it, it was her.
There has been debate on social media about what position Shiva is in compared to his brothers at the end of the series, given that Tom is now CEO. Do you believe it was a win or a loss?
This is not victory. This is defeat. It’s a loveless, horrible marriage. Terrifying. That’s all I saw when I saw it happen. I saw a very sad woman. She is heartbroken and evicted. He’s married in an awful empty suit and they’ll laugh and they’ll have pictures and they’ll go skiing and all that and she’ll be empty. In my opinion, she simply died.
There are a few moments in the finale where the characters actually bond, including one in which Carl sings along with Logan and others. What was it like shooting that scene?
That’s part of Jesse’s genius. He’ll take you along and then suddenly slap, boom, a knife comes out, he’s brilliant with it. You can never catch your breath. It is like the calm before the storm. It’s wonderful, the ride he takes you on. And there isn’t even a moment to breathe, especially in that last episode. Everyone is on everyone all the time. There is no other where there is relief because there is pain and there is desire and there is fight, every moment of it.
It was sad for everybody because there were all of us and everybody knows everybody in that room, Frank and Jerry and Carl and Logan and Connor. We all know the situation, we all know things are falling apart, the children are in terrible condition. And the words of the song are, “May the race of war chase riches, ‘riches may still blow them away, hey” – they may have them but in the end their heart cannot enjoy them. That is the message of that song and the message of that song is the message of the whole series. His heart can never enjoy them.
When did you know this would be the last season?
I know that [Jesse] Did not know. He didn’t really know it was. Even at the start of the season, we didn’t know this was going to be the end until the table read [for the final episode], He said, “Well, I think it’s time, though you never know, but no, no, it’s time. We had an idea and I think we played it out – though – no, no, We have to end it. And he went back and forth, and he had a lot of trouble letting go because it was remarkable, the group of actors and crew not to be regrouped. But he knew because the name of the show “Succession” is what it’s about. He could go on a million ways, but Jesse wasn’t interested in that. He was interested in family and family dynamics and what that family did and what wealth and power would do.
I mean this thing went from 30 drafts to 50 drafts. It’s funny, the number of man hours, and the ideas and the discussion and then going to the board and the writers turning things around. It’s a massive effort and that’s what you’re seeing. It didn’t happen by accident.
I once worked with a music writer and a librettist and I overheard them having an argument and one said to the other, ‘I work harder than you.’ And that’s Jessie. He won’t say it, but he works harder than most people I’ve ever met, but he doesn’t break a sweat. All the awards for this entire show should go to him. All my amazing lines this year, I didn’t write them, he wrote them. It’s great writing and if you say it he says ‘Oh, we’re all in this together’ but if you go to any one writer they all say, ‘Well, it’s Jesse.’ I mean there were things that I know some of the writers have written but he always goes through it and makes changes and cleans things up.
What was your reaction to Logan’s death in episode 3?
I thought it was the most daring thing ever done by any writer in the history of television. Under normal circumstances, he would have died at the end but, he died a shameful death. He just died on the bathroom floor. Life is really like that. [Jesse] In my opinion, he is extremely courageous, he will take a huge opportunity.
What I was worried about wasn’t necessarily number three, which is when he died, but I was worried about episode 4 because when you have a show that’s as strong and revolutionary and surprising and number As shocking as three is then you’d better have some follow this up. And it could easily be that they go, “Oh my God. well, what’s next? Oh No. Oh, they shouldn’t have killed him. oh, that was the end of the show? I hate it now. no way. It was just like a springboard. And then the show really took off. I mean, I think the last six episodes were as strong as that show has ever looked. It is remarkable, his indomitable understanding of what to do and how to do it.
What were some of your favorite moments/scenes to shoot during “Succession”?
Pigs on the floor, of course, had a lot of fun. That’s Tony Roach, one of the writers. That was, I think, one of the most original scripts, it should have gotten any Emmys. I mean, he made this game and it was so revealing and so brutal and so brilliant.
I had fun in Zagreb when I had a panic attack, it was a lot of fun shooting that whole sequence. And this season, of course, it was a lot of fun to dress up as Tom and it was fun to be there for him to be there, you know, the clown laughs on the airplane after Logan dies. And then of course, when Kendall looks like he’s going to screw up my entire future, giving him a spanking. Had a lot of fun doing this.
What are you going to miss the most about working on ‘Succession’?
After the third season, we were regrouping a bit and producer Scott Ferguson said that he had never been in a position where he had worked with so many people who were at the top of their game and certainly This was the case since. And then I talked to Eddie first, who said the ethos in the crew is better. Everyone was just trying to make sure everything was right because that was the fun of it. Everyone was doing 1000%… It was a success because everyone worked very hard – really, really hard.
These people are forever imprinted on my mind. I will miss everyone. Nicholas Braun, who plays Greg, is a bar owner and he got us all together to watch the last episode together. It’s like a family. I could see and pick them up in 20 years as if it was yesterday. It was an amazing group of people.
All the episodes of “Succession” are now streaming on Max.